katy
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Post by katy on Mar 3, 2017 8:48:20 GMT
I don't have time right now to individually address everyone's posts, but I'll just say that there was a reason why I initially locked this announcement. Quite predictably, members don't see it from our point of view, they take it far too personally, and we end up going around in circles. There's an expression that goes "least said soonest mended" that I think applies here. It is NOT about off-topic posts in general. That is a misunderstanding. It's about members not taking us seriously when they're asked multiple times to take something elsewhere or move on. We try to be a fair, transparent moderation team, but at the end of the day it's our prerogative to guide the forum in a certain direction. We're really not asking a lot from you guys. I don't think any posts here have taken anything personally or been unreasonable. Having not been part of the off topic thing my views purely from the outside looking in.
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eismann
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Post by eismann on Mar 3, 2017 9:08:58 GMT
Here are my thoughts about this discussion: - posts can be misinterpreted, light-hearted jokes could be seen as provoking comments. So maybe instead of reacting with threatening in public threads, just stay calm and ask the 'problematic' member via PM what's the problem. - don't take it personal. This is important for staff and members. I don't think anyone wants to hurt the other on a personal level. Especially the staff (as they are in a 'superior' position) needs to be calm and not let provoking comments ruin the relationship between staff and members - new members need time to understand how the forum works and what tone we use around here. - the staff needs to be respected. They invest a lot of time and energy in keeping this forum and while none has to agree with everything they do, it's important to discuss with them with respect. On the other hand, threatening the members in public threads with bans and warnings makes the staff look aggressive and that will make members lose respect. - yes, discussing back and forth about her marriages and the same members sharing their opinion about it several times is off topic and should be taken elsewhere when it's in the wrong thread. But sometimes new topics can be developed by going off topic and then members come back to the main topic naturally. That's just going to happen in a forum. Peace out
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 10:20:32 GMT
On the other hand, threatening the members in public threads with bans and warnings makes the staff look aggressive and that will make members lose respect I understand that it can be perceived that way, but what do you expect us to do? We've tried the nice, passive approach to this. Really we have. But without our presence this site would descend into total chaos, and there comes a point where we're left with no other choice but to be a bit more 'aggressive'.
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Mar 3, 2017 11:52:20 GMT
Welp I was writing out a long response on my phone and the page felt the need to reload on me so I lost it all... So I hope I remember everything I wanted to say. Which will lead me into my first point. It's not always possible to move posts right away, depending on what device you're using. I am on my phone more than half the time and it's basically impossible to move posts on a mobile device. We shouldn't necessarily have to move posts to the appropriate thread, at least not right away, when we ask members to take their discussion to the right thread. That's something that can be done later on when a staff person has the time or means to do so, but it is not absolutely necessary for posts to be moved in order for members to take their discussion to the right thread. I understand the problem with quoting and all that, and if that's the case, simply copy and paste the quote you'd like to respond to or you can start your post with something like RE: Avril's failed marriages, RE: Is Avril a sellout?, etc. We aren't annoyed that members go off topic. It's a forum, it's going to happen on a near constant basis. We are annoyed that we have had to ask the same people over and over again to do a very simple thing. We never said people can't discuss topics like Avril's failed marriages or if she's a sell out. We only said take it to the thread where it belongs. If a member who's new is looking for info in the 6th album thread and they are seeing these posts that have nothing to do with it, why would they read the thread? It also became an issue when members began arguing with each other in these threads. A controversial comment was made about Avril's personal life and many responded to defend her (and yes I take part ownership of the fact I participated in that as well) or 2 members arguing for SEVERAL PAGES about whether or not Avril is a sell out and justifying why she has her side projects. Does that sound like it has anything at all to do with her new album? Nope, it certainly does not. Argue about it all you want, but there's a better thread for it where other members who care to discuss the new album don't have to see it if they don't want to. There is a reason why we have moderators and why it's part of our job to keep things more or less on the topic. Because believe it or not, that makes things better for everybody. If somebody is reading the thread for album 6 info, they don't necessarily want to see arguing about her being a sell out or that she is immature and needs to grow up, etc. We really aren't asking that much. The staff have been patient, fair, respectful, and open with the rest of the members since day 1. Don't act like we are supposed to bend over backwards and just continue taking abuse from people when we've made a pretty simple and fair request. If the off topic posts aren't such a big deal then why is it a big deal when we ask them to be taken somewhere else? Please tell us what's difficult about this. Seriously. I'm seriously asking why there's all this pushback about simply moving a discussion to the thread where it belongs. Frankly we don't care if you guys disagree or not. You're free to PM us if you feel that way and politely tell us why you don't agree or ask us to explain it if you don't understand it. We're more than happy to do that. But that doesn't give anyone the right to just ignore us and continue to do what we specifically asked them not to. This isn't a free for all where everyone can just do what they want or they don't have to listen to staff unless they feel like it. You are not allowed to pick and choose what you listen to and what you go "No, I don't agree with that, so I'm not going to." A parent doesn't get their kid to behave by being nice. They shouldn't be mean or abusive but they set rules in place and there's punishments when the rules aren't followed. We haven't been disrespectful to members the way they have been to us. Aggressive, yes. Because we've felt the need to be. You guys don't know the whole story. The large majority of members have been 100% cooperative with us when we asked them for example to drop the DM discussion because that was a very sensitive topic that put one of the staff in a very difficult position, or when we asked the sell out discussion to be taken elsewhere. We are just getting pushback from the same few people over and over again and they have also been abusing the report button and reporting staff posts that are actually mod notes, which do belong in the thread. They are purposely baiting us and being disrespectful when we have asked them to do the simplest thing. Put yourselves in our shoes and think how you would feel if you were in our position and basically taking crap for trying to do your job, a job we don't get paid for by the way, that we do because we love the site. I'd like to think that we are nothing like the old staff was. We are open to listening to member suggestions and complaints. It doesn't mean we are always going to agree with your suggestions and go along with them or that we're obligated to do what you say. But we allow you to voice your opinions and express what you're feeling about something, which is why we unlocked this thread. I mean... honestly what more do you want from us? Should we just let threads continue going off topic and be filled with completely irrelevant arguing? Nobody wants to see that. Why even have threads in the first place or have mods if we should just let them be a free for all? To make myself clear, we know topics are gonna go off topic from time to time. That's NOT why we are doing this. We are annoyed at having to repeat ourselves over and over again for something that should be pretty simple and easy for everyone to follow. On the old site when a mod said a discussion was done, it was done. If anyone continued, they were given a warning. It works that way on almost any other online forum too. Why should BA be any different? A few people feel they cannot follow a simple rule and are giving us pushback over something that should be pretty simple to follow. We aren't asking people to jump off cliffs for us.
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Mar 3, 2017 12:02:22 GMT
Also might I just point out that when I gave everybody final warning in the 6th album thread, most people dropped it and tried to steer the discussion back in the right direction? Clearly most members are responsive to the warning system. If that's what it takes to get people to listen, then that's what we have to do. By the way, I would just like to take a moment to say thank you to the members who do cooperate with us and have been responsive when we asked for discussions to be moved or dropped. It's much appreciated.
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Mar 3, 2017 12:17:25 GMT
One final thought from me for now:
At the end of the day, the staff is in charge of the site, not the members. We have rules that everyone, including staff, must follow. If someone feels they can't follow these rules, then they shouldn't be here. It's as simple as that. Most online forums work exactly like this. We aren't going to be any different. I hardly think we are being tyrannical here or anything.
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⋆niki⋆
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Post by ⋆niki⋆ on Mar 3, 2017 12:24:14 GMT
Also might I just point out that when I gave everybody final warning in the 6th album thread, most people dropped it and tried to steer the discussion back in the right direction? Clearly most members are responsive to the warning system. If that's what it takes to get people to listen, then that's what we have to do. By the way, I would just like to take a moment to say thank you to the members who do cooperate with us and have been responsive when we asked for discussions to be moved or dropped. It's much appreciated. It's so great to read a positive post about this from you Andrea. I can only promise that I will do my best as I did everytime. Any time I saw the threads became something they should not be I just dropped a question for example (like I did last time with the fanbase name). I know it's a hard job, I know what it's like, I have my own site too. I know it's hard to be positive in this case. Maybe the stuff can try warn members by name? Not talking about members makes bad things in general? Instead point out the members who are messing with the staff? And try to tell them in threads or in pm to stop? Do you know what I mean? Because making warms in general sometimes makes me feel like I'm in a kind of kindergarten, because some of the members acting bad, so the teachers tells everyone you were a bad bad girl and a bad bad boy and then the whole thing just falls apart because after these warnings no one wanna really share their honest opinion. I always feel bad when I see all these passive-agressive posts and it's just makes me wanna not post anything. That's why I am asking when somebody made a mistake you don't necessarily have to be talking about general because even though I didn't do anything I feel guilty too somehow
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Mar 3, 2017 12:27:02 GMT
Also might I just point out that when I gave everybody final warning in the 6th album thread, most people dropped it and tried to steer the discussion back in the right direction? Clearly most members are responsive to the warning system. If that's what it takes to get people to listen, then that's what we have to do. By the way, I would just like to take a moment to say thank you to the members who do cooperate with us and have been responsive when we asked for discussions to be moved or dropped. It's much appreciated. It's so great to read a positive post about this from you Andrea. I can only promise that I will do my best as I did everytime. Any time I saw the threads became something they should not be I just dropped a question for example (like I did last time with the fanbase name). I know it's a hard job, I know what it's like, I have my own site too. I know it's hard to be positive in this case. Maybe the stuff can try warn members by name? Not talking about members makes bad things in general? Instead point out the members who are messing with the staff? And try to tell them in threads or in pm to stiop? Do you know what I mean? Thanks for the suggestion. I tried to give general warnings so it didn't seem like we were picking on anyone or calling anyone out but perhaps in the future, if certain people are being a problem, we may have to start being more direct with the warnings. Your cooperation with us is greatly appreciated, thank you.
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⋆niki⋆
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Post by ⋆niki⋆ on Mar 3, 2017 12:32:09 GMT
It's so great to read a positive post about this from you Andrea. I can only promise that I will do my best as I did everytime. Any time I saw the threads became something they should not be I just dropped a question for example (like I did last time with the fanbase name). I know it's a hard job, I know what it's like, I have my own site too. I know it's hard to be positive in this case. Maybe the stuff can try warn members by name? Not talking about members makes bad things in general? Instead point out the members who are messing with the staff? And try to tell them in threads or in pm to stiop? Do you know what I mean? Thanks for the suggestion. I tried to give general warnings so it didn't seem like we were picking on anyone or calling anyone out but perhaps in the future, if certain people are being a problem, we may have to start being more direct with the warnings. Your cooperation with us is greatly appreciated, thank you. I think it would be a better idea. I added some more thoughts to my post. Maybe it's clearer why I asking it now in this way. Thank you Andrea
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 12:50:26 GMT
oh wow, i see you here have a whole committee. time to name it somehow. every serious committee has a name.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 12:58:01 GMT
Also might I just point out that when I gave everybody final warning in the 6th album thread, most people dropped it and tried to steer the discussion back in the right direction? Clearly most members are responsive to the warning system. If that's what it takes to get people to listen, then that's what we have to do. By the way, I would just like to take a moment to say thank you to the members who do cooperate with us and have been responsive when we asked for discussions to be moved or dropped. It's much appreciated. It's so great to read a positive post about this from you Andrea. I can only promise that I will do my best as I did everytime. Any time I saw the threads became something they should not be I just dropped a question for example (like I did last time with the fanbase name). I know it's a hard job, I know what it's like, I have my own site too. I know it's hard to be positive in this case. Maybe the stuff can try warn members by name? Not talking about members makes bad things in general? Instead point out the members who are messing with the staff? And try to tell them in threads or in pm to stop? Do you know what I mean? Because making warms in general sometimes makes me feel like I'm in a kind of kindergarten, because some of the members acting bad, so the teachers tells everyone you were a bad bad girl and a bad bad boy and then the whole thing just falls apart because after these warnings no one wanna really share their honest opinion. I always feel bad when I see all these passive-agressive posts and it's just makes me wanna not post anything. That's why I am asking when somebody made a mistake you don't necessarily have to be talking about general because even though I didn't do anything I feel guilty too somehow Thanks for the suggestion. The only problem with this approach is that some members already feel they're being 'targeted' over this, and I think calling them out by name will only make it worse for them. We have a discrete, confidential report system for this reason. On the other hand, some members get caught in the crossfire and assume we're referring to them even if we're not. There really is no pleasing everyone.
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katy
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Post by katy on Mar 3, 2017 13:00:06 GMT
"Frankly we don't care if you disagree or not" Then opening this thread for us mere mortals to reply was a waste of time. I (and I'd imagine quite a few members) don't really care about off topic posting - if you guys do then whatever but as discussed above the way in which it's been worded etc has been OTT. (And I agree - staff here are 10000x better than some on the last forum, the fact this is the first time anything like this has come up shows that - the staff on the last forum posted something to piss someone off every other post. Not that I think I've actually been involved in the off topic thing but it's nice you've given us the chance to give our thoughts, don't ruin it by telling us you don't actually care )
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shuhan
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Post by shuhan on Mar 3, 2017 13:47:29 GMT
I think all of this is getting blown out of proportion :/
Maybe pin the Random Avril Discussion Thread on every forum so it gets more noticed by the members and all heavy off topic posts can go there.
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Bootylicious Batch
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Post by Bootylicious Batch on Mar 3, 2017 14:01:39 GMT
Right that's it... Time to bring Sharifa, Lewis & Devon back to sort out this messes All jokes aside though, it must be really frustrating for the staff to repeatedly ask members to stay on topic, or to take said topic to the relevant thread. When the same behavior repeats itself and staff are being ignored, it does show a lack of respect, not only for the staff, but for the forum also. I truly believe all the mods are being reasonable, they want the same as us members want - simplicity. It is kind of off-putting when you open up a thread about AL6 and you think there is gonna be new updates, only to find members arguing about Avril's marriages etc. We have probably at some point, all been guilty of veering off-topic (even if only slightly) but that's not the issue. It's about (even when being given a heads up by mods about getting back onto topic) continuously ignoring staff and making threads so messy Also I don't think any members are going out of there way to go off topic continuously on purpose, maybe they just need to be guided in the right direction for using appropriate forum decorum. All of us on here should remain calm though, I know things can get heated and it's not always going to be rainbows and smiles, but respect should always be at the forefront of everyone's mind before hitting that 'Create Post' button. We have all got to remember. We are all here for the same reason - Avril Lavigne. Ain't nobody got time for drama when such exciting times are ahead. Let's make this era fun and positive and keep out the negativity (there's enough of that in our world right now, we don't need it in our beautiful little forum) xoxo
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sam
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Post by sam on Mar 3, 2017 14:58:56 GMT
"Frankly we don't care if you disagree or not"Then opening this thread for us mere mortals to reply was a waste of time. I (and I'd imagine quite a few members) don't really care about off topic posting - if you guys do then whatever but as discussed above the way in which it's been worded etc has been OTT. (And I agree - staff here are 10000x better than some on the last forum, the fact this is the first time anything like this has come up shows that - the staff on the last forum posted something to piss someone off every other post. Not that I think I've actually been involved in the off topic thing but it's nice you've given us the chance to give our thoughts, don't ruin it by telling us you don't actually care ) What Bogo meant by this was if you've broken a rule disagreeing with it isn't an excuse to ignore it We're more than happy to listen to you guys and take on feedback as we do really care about what you all think but when someone is being processed through our report system it's a little different compared to this open dialogue we have in which we're happy to consider changes you guys want I think all of this is getting blown out of proportion :/ Maybe pin the Random Avril Discussion Thread on every forum so it gets more noticed by the members and all heavy off topic posts can go there. That's an idea and we'll definitely consider something like that Having more clarity on the forum is always a good thing. The only issue with this idea is that right now the Black Star Lounge is the forum's most popular board and it'll definitely need some more clean-up (amogst some other sections, always room for improvement!) before we make a "quick list" of threads - but perhaps it could be a list on another page entirely Another option for us would just be to simply promote the random disc/random Avril disc threads more Anyway! I'm really glad you guys have given us your thoughts and opinions on this and we'll be keeping this thread for future reference. I can't promise any of the ideas you guys have suggested will come to fruition, but we will consider and look into them! Final note: This warning system we have in place won't be forever - when we are pleased with member co-operation we'll remove it. Thread closed - I feel we've exhausted this topic but if you have any further comments about this please PM us or make a new thread in the questions board!
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