eismann
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Post by eismann on Sept 14, 2020 23:03:35 GMT
*TRIGGER WARNING* THE BELOW POSTS CONTAIN DISCUSSION ABOUT R*PE AND S*XUAL A**AULT
*DISCRETION IS ADVISED*
*********************************************************************************
How to deal with Avril having worked with abusers (and/or possibly working with abusers in the future)?
Not sure if this deserves its own thread, but I will start here. Background: Two days ago I have seen the statement from Evan Rachel Wood of how she was abused when she was 18. I have never heard of this before. The video of her talking was very emotional and she talks about rape, physical and verbal violence, torture and death-threats. In case anyone wants to watch her testimony: here. Evan Rachel Wood is a supporter of the Phoenix Act, a law (in California only, I think) that gives survivors of domestic violence more time to come forward with their stories. The man Evan Rachel Wood is talking about is probably her then-partner Marylin Manson. She doesn not name him, but many people in the internet speculate it's him because of the time frame - and also because Esmé Bianco did a testimony as well. She has also been with Marylin Manson and many people on the internet say the time frames suits their relationship.
In short: There is no evidence, no naming - but there are reasons to believe that Marylin Manson abused two of his ex-girlfriends in a very traumatic way. We also have the whole story of (alleged) abuse from Dr. Luke towards Kesha. Avril worked with the both of them - BEFORE these two were publically accused of abuse.
Now, I want to make sure that this post is not about guilty/not guilty regarding Marylin Manson and Dr. Luke. It's also not about shaming or judging Avril. I want to believe that she has never heard of these allegations before they were made public. My questions is not so much about how Avril should react (I think she has been showing support for Kesha in the past and she has been seen spending time with Evan Rachel Wood) - but it's more about how us as her fans could/should react to this. What do we do with her songs that were produced/written/sung with (allegedly) abusers? Do we sing Bad Girl at her concerts? Do we support her in playing "Beautiful People" (by Marylin Manson) at her concerts? Do we address this at some point? Should we do something to show suppport with survivors of (domestic) abuse? We have spend money on buying Girlfriend before we knew about Dr. Luke - do we "owe" survivors of abuse support? Honestly I could go on and on because I'm very conflicted about this. So I'm curious what you all have to say about this.
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biggerwow
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Post by biggerwow on Sept 14, 2020 23:10:19 GMT
I'm glad you brought it up because I have thought about it too. Even after hanging out with her she wore a Marilyn Manson shirt on Genius.
She also hung out with Michael from 5SOS but allegations about him and underage girls came out after she invited him to play with her. The allegation even shocked me and opened my eyes to him. Though, I must say he was never proved guilty. I just happen to believe the rumors because of some things I researched about him.
About Avril, I figure she's just oblivious and out of touch. A lot of people are not aware of this stuff. And if they are they just think it's internet rumor or don't think there's enough evidence. Abusers are rampant in the industry. L.A. Reid also had allegations against him sometime after Avril got back in touch with him. And she also dealt with it with Rotem.
EDIT/ADD IN:
(Accidently made a second post but deleted it) About the music, it's up to you if you feel uncomfortable and want to stop supporting it. It's music after all. This is a very controversial topic. Music is art. There for the consumer who wants to consume it. Basically anything in the world can be handled and benefit bad people. It's exhausting just thinking about it.
Personally, I still listen to the tracks Dr. Luke was involved. It's hard not to, he was part of a lot. I just can't watch the TBDT DVD ever again. It makes me so uncomfortable how close he and Avril seemed to be. Btw I'm glad she maced him but even that gives me shivers just thinking it could have been in different circumstances. Then the song with Manson has always felt cringy especially after learning about his alleged behavior. But it's all up to you and what you believe is best for you. If it triggers you then don't listen.
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Sept 15, 2020 0:49:34 GMT
Unfortunately there's probably very few people you could find in Hollywood who don't have some sort of skeleton in their closet. If you tuned out every person who's been accused of something, you probably wouldn't have much left.
As biggerwow pointed out, there's many guys who have been accused of something that Avril has worked with (besides Manson & Dr. Luke, there's LA Reid and Rotem). I think she said it best that it's up to the individual listener if they feel comfortable listening to this music or not. With Dr. Luke it's kind of hard to avoid it. He was involved in her biggest hit, they aren't exactly going to remove it from streaming or anything.
There's nothing she can do about the past. All she can do going forward is maybe vet the people she's working with and make sure they aren't creeps before she decides to work with them. If she really feels uncomfortable about something, she can always choose to remove their work from her streaming page. It'd be pretty controversial but some artists have done that when things like this have happened. And I think more than anything we can be thankful that (presumably) nothing happened to her personally. As far as the music itself goes, considering she still performs Girlfriend in concert, it's safe to say she probably isn't going to do anything about it. And if they really wanted to, they could always do a re-release of Bad Girl and easily remove Manson's parts.
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Sept 15, 2020 0:58:00 GMT
Staff note: Due to the sensitive nature of the content being discussed here, I thought I'd add a trigger warning and move these posts to their own thread.
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MyHappySk8er
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Post by MyHappySk8er on Sept 15, 2020 3:39:49 GMT
It seems many of these artists have done terrible things, but Avril probably didn't know about them when working with them. As painful as it sounds, there's very little definitive proof for these allegations, even if the circumstances under which they are made probably make them true. Anyone can make up stories to get a payout or to #metoo someone they don't like to death. We have to be careful for the innocent. For example, Melissa Benoist(Supergirl) made a post detailing her domestic abuse. People matched up the timelines and figured out that it was very likely her ex-husband, Blake Jenner. They went after him on his social media and he limited comments and stopped posting. As happy as I am to see him outed, it's also scary to know that this mentality could lead to innocent people in the crossfire. Should Avril just not collaborate with anyone with mere accusations against them? Couldn't that lead to abuse if every artist had this same mentality(This artist has allegations against him. Nobody works with him. Said artist suffers financially because of it. He turns out to be innocent)? I'm sure some of you have been on the receiving end of false accusations before, even if the actions you are accused of go completely against your character. People bullshit and lie all the time for many reasons. Here are some reasons I've experienced online and in real-life: - To get money
- To defend their fragile egos
- To look like the good guy/gal
- To harm someone they dislike
- To avoid having to admit that they're wrong
I don't think people should get so worked up just because someone gets accused. It sets such a dangerous precedent.
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ame · 雨
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Post by ame · 雨 on Sept 15, 2020 7:12:10 GMT
There's so many artists during history that have done much worse and we still admire them or consume their art. As rude as it may sound, we should always separate art from artist. I like a lot of songs by artits that I just hate but I have to admit the songs are good. And a few songs by artists that have been in involved in cases like these as well. Sometimes i feel ok listening to them, sometimes i don't and just skip the song. It depends on my mood i guess.
What's sure is that if you feel uncomfortable, just don't listen to it. But i would never go as far as ban anything. Dr.Luke may be a horrible person, but you just can't deny he was a good producer and made bops and literally her biggest hit.
What if tomorrow it was proven that DaVinci was a murderer and child abuser? Bad people can do good things, bad people can make art, good art actually. I would never ban a masterpiece just because it's creator is a horrible person. Ban, the person, not the art i guess.
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eismann
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Post by eismann on Sept 15, 2020 8:12:52 GMT
It seems many of these artists have done terrible things, but Avril probably didn't know about them when working with them. As painful as it sounds, there's very little definitive proof for these allegations, even if the circumstances under which they are made probably make them true. Anyone can make up stories to get a payout or to #metoo someone they don't like to death. We have to be careful for the innocent. For example, Melissa Benoist(Supergirl) made a post detailing her domestic abuse. People matched up the timelines and figured out that it was very likely her ex-husband, Blake Jenner. They went after him on his social media and he limited comments and stopped making posts. As happy as I am to see him outed, it's also scary to know that this mentality could lead to innocent people in the crossfire. Should Avril just not collaborate with anyone with mere accusations against them? Couldn't that lead to abuse if every artist had this same mentality(This artist has allegations against him. Nobody works with him. Said artist suffers financially because of it. He turns out to be innocent)? I'm sure some of you have been on the receiving end of false accusations before, even if the actions you are accused of go completely against your character. People bullshit and lie all the time for many reasons. Here are some reasons I've experienced online and in real-life: - To get money
- To defend their fragile egos
- To look like the good guy/gal
- To harm someone they dislike
- To avoid having to admit that they're wrong
I don't think people should get so worked up just because someone gets accused. It sets such a dangerous precedent. It is not true that people are accused of sexual assault all the time and then it turns out to be wrong. You can read about false accusations here, it's very rare and it's not possible that everyone around Avril who got accused or will be accused is innocent. Also there is a difference between lyling about things or accusing someone of sexual assault or domestic violence. If you go with the legal system and "innocent until proven otherwise", I understand your logic. But it's important to consider how difficult it is to actually get someone proven guilty by a judge.
I know there are many many artists that have abused someone in their past or they probably still do it. And I get that for Avril it might be difficult to speak openly about it. But us fans have nothing to lose, so why don't we support survivors of abuse instead of not even speaking up? Personally, I can't watch the TBDT DVD anymore, it's just weird seeing them having fun and knowing what kind of person Dr. Luke is. It's weird for me knowing she will probably continue to open her shows with Beautiful People by Marylin Manson when it is allegedly true that he tortured (!) his ex-partner(s).
As I said, I'm wondering how we as fans, as a collective, can handle these situations? I'm not talking about speading rumours, bullying people without any hint that they have might abused someone. I'm thinking, how can we support survivors of sexual assault when we benefit from the art of the abuser? It's not possible to not listen to TBDT-songs by Dr. Luke, it's basically half of the album. But for example: Shouldn't we have reacted when Kesha came forward (and Avril even supported her, even though it might have been subtle) and reached out to survivors of assault or even Kesha? Or do you think it's not possible anymore to work collectively and everyone is asked to use their own plattform to do the work? I dont know, it feels weird to me that I have never even seen a discussion about this or a form of criticism of the songs that happened with (alleged) abusers.
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Sept 15, 2020 12:22:40 GMT
Avril hasn’t played Bad Girl or The Beautiful People since the AL Tour. And it’s pretty unlikely she ever will again.
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biggerwow
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Post by biggerwow on Sept 15, 2020 15:03:36 GMT
Yo he's not that talented
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katy
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Post by katy on Sept 15, 2020 17:27:34 GMT
I wouldn’t want her to work with them again but I wouldn’t not listen to or not support the old stuff or anything. I wouldn’t continue to support if the artist themselves were the problem (like Chris Brown..how does he still have a successful career?) but when it’s just someone who worked on the song I don’t see why she should stop playing it or whatever.
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Underclass King
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Post by Underclass King on Sept 15, 2020 18:51:36 GMT
I believe art can have a transcendent value that is context-independent, thus meaning that in some cases art can be separated from the artist. I still intend to listen to The Best Damn Thing despite Dr. Luke's hand in it, even if I think the allegations against him, if true, are deplorable. While people can debate the originality of his productions, I do contend that he is a talented producer that has crafted a plurality of the biggest Top 40 songs of the last decade, thus making his work hard to avoid for an avid mainstream pop listener like myself. With that said, I wouldn't want Avril to work with these alleged abusive figures again, although I also won't boycott/not support older music that these figures may have contributed to.
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Panchali
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Post by Panchali on Sept 15, 2020 18:55:49 GMT
I'm not aware of any of these, except for Dr Luke.
But, for me, that depends on the accusation and how believable it is. I have seen a lot of cases where someone has made a false accusation #metoo and later, after the guy's life is destroyed, the accusation turned out to be false. As someone who comes from where there is a lot of "mob mentality", people do that to ruin someone's career or take revenge too.
If though, its a singer against whom there is substantial evidence of what he did.. it would make me very uncomfortable. I wouldn't want to listen to his voice.
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katy
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Post by katy on Sept 15, 2020 19:26:29 GMT
I'm not aware of any of these, except for Dr Luke. But, for me, that depends on the accusation and how believable it is. I have seen a lot of cases where someone has made a false accusation #metoo and later, after the guy's life is destroyed, the accusation turned out to be false. As someone who comes from where there is a lot of "mob mentality", people do that to ruin someone's career or take revenge too. If though, its a singer against whom there is substantial evidence of what he did.. it would make me very uncomfortable. I wouldn't want to listen to his voice. Yeah I feel a bit odd when I hear Lost Prophets now. It’s definitely worse when it’s the artist themselves.
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Panchali
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Post by Panchali on Sept 16, 2020 5:49:11 GMT
I'm not aware of any of these, except for Dr Luke. But, for me, that depends on the accusation and how believable it is. I have seen a lot of cases where someone has made a false accusation #metoo and later, after the guy's life is destroyed, the accusation turned out to be false. As someone who comes from where there is a lot of "mob mentality", people do that to ruin someone's career or take revenge too. If though, its a singer against whom there is substantial evidence of what he did.. it would make me very uncomfortable. I wouldn't want to listen to his voice. Yeah I feel a bit odd when I hear Lost Prophets now. It’s definitely worse when it’s the artist themselves. The Lost prophets are the first ones to come to my mind when I think about all this. This case was really extreme. IMO, in extreme cases when the victims are not one, but many and things seem to be very obvious, it’s not believable that people around them didn’t know. I’m pretty sure those who worked with them knew about it. This case couldn’t have gone unnoticed. What I find shocking is, this is something that went on for a long time, the police didn’t do anything when the first complaint was made.. Didn’t expect something like this in the west.
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katy
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Post by katy on Sept 16, 2020 7:34:11 GMT
Yeah I feel a bit odd when I hear Lost Prophets now. It’s definitely worse when it’s the artist themselves. The Lost prophets are the first ones to come to my mind when I think about all this. This case was really extreme. IMO, in extreme cases when the victims are not one, but many and things seem to be very obvious, it’s not believable that people around them didn’t know. I’m pretty sure those who worked with them knew about it. This case couldn’t have gone unnoticed. What I find shocking is, this is something that went on for a long time, the police didn’t do anything when the first complaint was made.. Didn’t expect something like this in the west. Yeah the police handled it awfully. I think it was something like his ex girlfriend made the first few reports and they didn’t believe her and just thought she was some angry ex. She had texts from him on her phone where he pretty much admitted what was going on but the police didn’t even look at it. Massively messed up
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