eismann
Member
Join Date: Mar 16, 2015 12:58:42 GMT
Posts: 1,547 
Likes: 3,599
Last Online: Sept 15, 2019 19:47:36 GMT
|
Post by eismann on Sept 16, 2020 8:08:53 GMT
I have deleted many artists from my playlists because I consider their crimes or behaviour too extreme and I don't want to support them anymore (e.g. via streaming). But these artists have never been my favourite ones in the first place, so it might have been easier. Lost prophets is a good example.
I strongly doubt it but if Avril would ever do something that is unbearable to me, I would quit on her completely. With her the disappointment would be so big, I could not support her anymore or even listen to her music.
Personally I don't think you should seperate the art from the artist. You need to see the context in which the art was made. Otherwise you see the value of specific pieces of art higher than the value of victims/survivors. And seeing that those artists often chose the same victims (women) make it a structural problem, not individual. Not talking about their (structural) misbehaviour when talking about their art is not right (IMO!).
I guess with Avril I'm just hoping she is aware of what's going on around her and she chooses her producers (and also friends!) carefully. Also I would like to see a more critical fan base. I think it's good that we always look for information who she is working with because it gives the songs context. That's why I'm still here and not just on Twitter or Insta liking her stuff. It's good to have in depth information and it's important to be critical - especially if she works with big names of the industry and even more if those are powerful men.
|
|
BogoGog24
Administrator 
I'm off again in my world...
Join Date: Mar 14, 2015 12:38:58 GMT
Posts: 14,687
Likes: 39,028
Last Online: Apr 20, 2024 0:15:20 GMT
|
Post by BogoGog24 on Sept 16, 2020 12:13:42 GMT
Yeah I think separating the art from the artist only applies in certain cases. Like you don’t have to agree with their political views but you can still like their music. That’s separating the art from the artist and unless they have some really extreme political views, it’s not a big deal if you disagree. Ex: Katy, Miley, Taylor are all heavily leaning leftists, Katy and Miley both heavily endorsed Hillary in the 2016 election, certainly not all their fans are going to agree with them but this doesn’t make them bad people or is a reason to stop listening to them.
Now you look at artists like R. Kelly for example or Chris Brown... these are not merely accusations but confirmed cases of criminal activity. I don’t know how Chris Brown still has a career today. In extreme cases like this I don’t believe in separating the art from the artist. That’s like saying Mein Kempf (sorry don’t know spelling) is some great literary work, let’s separate it from the evil POS who wrote it. Like.... no.
|
|
BogoGog24
Administrator
I'm off again in my world...
Join Date: Mar 14, 2015 12:38:58 GMT
Posts: 14,687
Likes: 39,028
Last Online: Apr 20, 2024 0:15:20 GMT
|
Post by BogoGog24 on Sept 16, 2020 12:21:00 GMT
As far as Avril goes, I will say that I doubt she knew about these guys when she worked with them. Dr. Luke I don’t think was that known at the time, he started blowing up in the late 2000s/early 2010s and I don’t think he started working with Kesha yet. The allegations against him didn’t come out until years later. If not for that, I don’t think anyone would have known about it. She hasn’t worked with any of these guys since these allegations came out. It’d be a different story if she continued to work with someone after it was either well known public knowledge that they had done something or worse, were actually convicted.
I almost wonder if that’s why nothing ever happened with Dumb Blonde. Nicki is pretty problematic by association, defending her rapist brother and husband. I can’t remember the timeline when the news came out but maybe that was why her team pulled the plug on the song. They could have tried to go ahead with the solo version but it defeated the whole purpose of having her involved in the first place and fans would have been complaining and asking why the Nicki version wasn’t released. DB was unlikely to be a hit on its own so probably better to just pull the plug on the whole thing.
|
|
MyHappySk8er
Member
Join Date: Feb 3, 2020 0:56:22 GMT
Posts: 495 
Likes: 745
Last Online: Apr 16, 2024 4:35:40 GMT
|
Post by MyHappySk8er on Sept 16, 2020 14:08:52 GMT
Now you look at artists like R. Kelly for example or Chris Brown... these are not merely accusations but confirmed cases of criminal activity. I don’t know how Chris Brown still has a career today. If it makes you feel any better, I'm pretty sure Chris Brown gets insulted a lot. Whenever I mention him to others or read about him on Reddit(or other places online), his woman-beating is one of the main topics. lmgtfy.com/?q=chris+brown+redditI don't know about you guys, but the first results for me are all about his abuse. When I looked at his Instagram, I noticed that comments are disabled.  |
|
BogoGog24
Administrator
I'm off again in my world...
Join Date: Mar 14, 2015 12:38:58 GMT
Posts: 14,687
Likes: 39,028
Last Online: Apr 20, 2024 0:15:20 GMT
|
Post by BogoGog24 on Sept 16, 2020 16:16:00 GMT
Now you look at artists like R. Kelly for example or Chris Brown... these are not merely accusations but confirmed cases of criminal activity. I don’t know how Chris Brown still has a career today. If it makes you feel any better, I'm pretty sure Chris Brown gets insulted a lot. Whenever I mention him to others or read about him on Reddit(or other places online), his woman-beating is one of the main topics. lmgtfy.com/?q=chris+brown+redditI don't know about you guys, but the first results for me are all about his abuse. When I looked at his Instagram, I noticed that comments are disabled. Regardless somehow he still sells records and that’s the issue. Going off on a slightly unrelated but still related tangent: Chris Brown’s song “Forever” was famously used on an episode of The Office for Jim and Pam’s wedding episode. It’s a huge episode and unfortunately it was produced before the Rihanna beating happened. I feel uncomfortable every time I watch it especially because it’s supposed to be for a tender, emotional scene, but oh well, there isn’t anything anyone can do about it. Not unless they wanted to go back and re-edit using a different song. And it’s too monumental of an episode to just remove from television/streaming. So basically the point is that when it comes to things that were made prior to allegations coming out, there’s not a lot anyone can do to try to “erase” the persons involvement or anything. It’s unlikely it will be re-edited or removed. At that point it comes down to your personal level of comfort with listening/watching. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Join Date: Apr 20, 2024 0:33:49 GMT
Posts: 0
Likes:
Last Online: Apr 20, 2024 0:33:49 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2020 11:03:52 GMT
The whole Dr Luke thing. Now I am not defending him as he sounds like a terrible person but was there any charges brought against him? I’m asking cos I don’t know? I realise he was taken to court by Kesha. Because if so is this similar to Michael Jackson? People still listen to his music. FYI not defending Michael Jackson but it is an interesting comparison nonetheless.
|
|
Underclass King
Retired Staff 
Join Date: Mar 16, 2015 1:55:09 GMT
Posts: 902
Likes: 1,822
Location: United States of America
Last Online: Apr 16, 2024 0:17:35 GMT
|
Post by Underclass King on Dec 28, 2020 22:11:29 GMT
The whole Dr Luke thing. Now I am not defending him as he sounds like a terrible person but was there any charges brought against him? I’m asking cos I don’t know? I realise he was taken to court by Kesha. Because if so is this similar to Michael Jackson? People still listen to his music. FYI not defending Michael Jackson but it is an interesting comparison nonetheless. There weren’t ever any charges brought against Dr. Luke as it was a civil case as opposed to criminal, and he actually won a ruling in the defamation case. This case is really a matter of “he said she said”. I know that sounds awful, but since there’s no evidence either way it’s just Kesha’s word against Luke’s. I believe that we should take all allegations seriously and that they should be fully heard. However, I also believe that said allegations should be subject to appropriate inquiry. I’m not saying that Dr. Luke is a good guy by any means, but I do firmly believe in the notion of innocent until proven guilty. With that said, I still do listen to Kesha’s music and also Dr. Luke-produced material such as The Best Damn Thing. As I said in my post from a few months ago, I think art can be context-independent in most cases and thus separated from the artists themselves. |
|
BogoGog24
Administrator
I'm off again in my world...
Join Date: Mar 14, 2015 12:38:58 GMT
Posts: 14,687
Likes: 39,028
Last Online: Apr 20, 2024 0:15:20 GMT
|
Post by BogoGog24 on Dec 28, 2020 22:22:26 GMT
As far as I know, no other allegations were brought against him either. That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, and I believe it probably did happen, but usually with stuff like this there are multiple victims who come forward.
|
|
tommygun
Member
Join Date: Oct 25, 2020 9:34:18 GMT
Posts: 394
Likes: 900
Last Online: Apr 19, 2024 21:36:16 GMT
|
Post by tommygun on Feb 1, 2021 9:22:56 GMT
Evan Rachel Wood has literally just posted on Instagram that Marilyn Manson was her abuser. How do you think Avril might respond to this as she is friends with both of them? To be honest I doubt she will respond but wonder how she must be feeling. How awful.
|
|
eismann
Member
Join Date: Mar 16, 2015 12:58:42 GMT
Posts: 1,547
Likes: 3,599
Last Online: Sept 15, 2019 19:47:36 GMT
|
Post by eismann on Feb 1, 2021 9:39:10 GMT
Evan Rachel Wood has literally just posted on Instagram that Marilyn Manson was her abuser. How do you think Avril might respond to this as she is friends with both of them? To be honest I doubt she will respond but wonder how she must be feeling. How awful. Zane Carney responded with a heart emoji. So Avril will know about it for sure. But I doubt she will respond publicly (even though I wish she would at least react to Evans post). |
|
BogoGog24
Administrator
I'm off again in my world...
Join Date: Mar 14, 2015 12:38:58 GMT
Posts: 14,687
Likes: 39,028
Last Online: Apr 20, 2024 0:15:20 GMT
|
Post by BogoGog24 on Feb 1, 2021 13:20:36 GMT
I doubt Avril will say anything publicly and she doesn’t need to. I’m not aware of her friendship with Evan but if she is friends with her, she could reach out privately. I’m hoping Avril cuts off communication with Manson and never works with him again.
|
|
tommygun
Member
Join Date: Oct 25, 2020 9:34:18 GMT
Posts: 394
Likes: 900
Last Online: Apr 19, 2024 21:36:16 GMT
|
Post by tommygun on Feb 1, 2021 15:15:10 GMT
They know one another through Zane Carney, I think he and Evan are in a band together. It’s really got me thinking today, Avril knew Manson when she was a late teenager as well, but she has always spoke highly of him. I always liked his music growing up, so I am pretty saddened to hear about this.
|
|
slapstick
Member
Join Date: Mar 9, 2018 19:14:32 GMT
Posts: 1,565
Likes: 2,787
Last Online: Apr 1, 2024 20:39:25 GMT
|
Post by slapstick on Feb 1, 2021 16:06:45 GMT
If anyone doesn't know it yet and would like to see more context on the Manson situation, Evan Rachel Wood's testimony in US congress in February 2018 is available here to read here: LINKBack then she didn't yet name him, she only gave statement in the scope of an anti-sexual-abuse legislation. |
|
MyHappySk8er
Member
Join Date: Feb 3, 2020 0:56:22 GMT
Posts: 495
Likes: 745
Last Online: Apr 16, 2024 4:35:40 GMT
|
Post by MyHappySk8er on Feb 1, 2021 16:51:33 GMT
The dude named himself after a serial killer. I mean... that’s all you even need to know to believe the victim here. Now now. The "victim" is probably telling the truth, but we don't need to bring up these kind of things to get at Marilyn Manson. There are lots of other things we could probably dig up about him that don't involve "he's edgy, so he must be a terrible person and an abuser harhar." |
|
BogoGog24
Administrator
I'm off again in my world...
Join Date: Mar 14, 2015 12:38:58 GMT
Posts: 14,687
Likes: 39,028
Last Online: Apr 20, 2024 0:15:20 GMT
|
Post by BogoGog24 on Feb 1, 2021 18:05:47 GMT
The dude named himself after a serial killer. I mean... that’s all you even need to know to believe the victim here. Now now. The "victim" is probably telling the truth, but we don't need to bring up these kind of things to get at Marilyn Manson. There are lots of other things we could probably dig up about him that don't involve "he's edgy, so he must be a terrible person and an abuser harhar." Ok so if someone named themselves after Hitler that wouldn’t be an indication they’re a complete psychopath? You don’t name yourself after a notorious serial killer or other horrific public figure unless you basically admire them. The dude is a creep and it all adds up. No sympathy from me here. |
|
