BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Dec 24, 2015 2:18:33 GMT
Speaking of Butch Walker, what went down between them? Nobody really knows but he sort of dissed her in his book that he wrote some years ago. He claims he came up with the tie idea, that he came in wearing one while Avril was sitting in a sundress and thought it "looked cool." I think it's kind of interesting that somehow he knew her back then, even though we never heard Avril mention it. I always thought they met during the making of UMS. Anyway, so then he goes on to say that, without using direct names but heavily implying, that when Avril started making TBDT they created "The Best Damn Thing" (song) together with the cheerleader vibe and he claims that Dr. Luke essentially ripped off his idea to make Girlfriend. Then apparently Avril was crying to him on the phone or something. It's been awhile since I read the whole story but on the old site someone posted the parts that are believed to be referring to Avril. This book was published in 2011 I think, so around the time they worked on GL together. And of course she hasn't worked with him since, so I don't know if it was the book that tore them apart or something before that and that's what led him to write about her in the book.
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Cookie Monster
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Post by Cookie Monster on Dec 24, 2015 6:56:59 GMT
Speaking of Butch Walker, what went down between them? Anyway, so then he goes on to say that, without using direct names but heavily implying, that when Avril started making TBDT they created "The Best Damn Thing" (song) together with the cheerleader vibe and he claims that Dr. Luke essentially ripped off his idea to make Girlfriend. Then apparently Avril was crying to him on the phone or something.Why?
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Dec 24, 2015 15:19:39 GMT
Anyway, so then he goes on to say that, without using direct names but heavily implying, that when Avril started making TBDT they created "The Best Damn Thing" (song) together with the cheerleader vibe and he claims that Dr. Luke essentially ripped off his idea to make Girlfriend. Then apparently Avril was crying to him on the phone or something.Why? l I don't remember. I guess Butch got angry at Luke for copying the song and Avril was upset because she had no idea Luke copied the song... I really don't know. This is only Butch's interpretation of events and quite frankly he seems like a bitter person. In his own mind he believes Luke intentionally ripped off the song, but for all we know Luke just took inspiration from that cheerleader sound and ran with it. He never mentions anyone by name so he can probably get away with stretching the truth about people. I really can't picture Avril crying to him on the phone over something like that. Upset or angry, maybe, but crying sounds a bit dramatic. I'd personally take what he wrote in his book with a grain of salt. He's been bitter towards Avril for years, most likely because of her success, and I'm sure he thought if he rode on her coat tails a bit in his book it's get more attention and sell a few more copies.
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Light02
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Post by Light02 on Dec 24, 2015 15:30:17 GMT
He also claimed he wrote parts of My Happy Ending and Don't Tell Me but was not credited.
And about the tie thing, he makes it sound as if Avril had never seen a man wearing a tie before him??
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Dec 24, 2015 16:42:34 GMT
He also claimed he wrote parts of My Happy Ending and Don't Tell Me but was not credited. And about the tie thing, he makes it sound as if Avril had never seen a man wearing a tie before him?? He is credited for MHE though.... What he said about it was that he initially started composing the song for his wife and supposedly wrote the entire first verse. Supposedly Avril wrote the chorus and possibly the rest of the song. But I guess the song originally came from Butch. Where DTM is concerned is that he claims to have written the bridge and was never credited. The thing is Avril wrote the song at 17, before Complicated had even been released. Maybe what happened is she had the song written and she showed it to him while they worked on UMS and he suggested a word change here and there. Which wouldn't really be enough to warrant an actual writing credit. I just don't see him writing part of the song and Avril refusing to give him credit. What motivation would she have for doing that? In reality he probably changed a few words and expected to get credit for it because like I said.... he seems like a bitter person. Basically any time one of her songs becomes a hit he wants to act like he had something to do with it. MHE became a hit? Well actually it was his idea in the first place and he wrote the entire first verse. Girlfriend became a hit? Well actually Dr. Luke stole his idea (IMO even though I like TBDT song I think Luke took his idea and just made it 10x better). Avril's tie look became a trend? Well actually she just copied him.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2015 6:41:13 GMT
Good info Bogo. Thanx. I'll look for that book.
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orangesky
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Post by orangesky on Dec 25, 2015 11:50:19 GMT
l I don't remember. I guess Butch got angry at Luke for copying the song and Avril was upset because she had no idea Luke copied the song... I really don't know. This is only Butch's interpretation of events and quite frankly he seems like a bitter person. In his own mind he believes Luke intentionally ripped off the song, but for all we know Luke just took inspiration from that cheerleader sound and ran with it. He never mentions anyone by name so he can probably get away with stretching the truth about people. I really can't picture Avril crying to him on the phone over something like that. Upset or angry, maybe, but crying sounds a bit dramatic. I'd personally take what he wrote in his book with a grain of salt. He's been bitter towards Avril for years, most likely because of her success, and I'm sure he thought if he rode on her coat tails a bit in his book it's get more attention and sell a few more copies. From what I remember of it Avril went into the studio with Butch and wrote some songs including TBDT and it was slated to be the lead single or at least a single of some sort (Avril even says in the 'making of' that it sounded like a hit to her). The label must have disagreed because they paired her up with Dr Luke to keep writing, or maybe the opportunity just came up and they were happy to let it happen. Butch then said that Avril played Luke some other stuff she had been doing, including TBDT, to show him what she was planning for the album and then he took TBDT and re-worked the cheerleader style to make GF which became the lead single instead and Butch felt like he had been ripped-off. Personally, I feel like he can't complain since the album is Avril's and if she wanted to make another cheerleader influenced song then that's up to her. Besides, they wrote a song about a completely different subject matter and both are influenced by songs like "Hey Mickey" to start with. For all we know Avril might have really wanted more cheerleader style songs on the album and it was her idea to do the same style for GF or maybe she just told Luke that's what she wanted and didn't play TBDT for him at all. Butch just sounds bitter because Luke and Avril made a better version of what he had tried to do with her and it became a big hit.
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Dec 25, 2015 23:32:19 GMT
^ Exactly. Chantal was always kind of bitter towards her too because she hated the fact that Avril went on to be a big pop star and she didn't. She even accused her of using one of her songs without giving her credit when really it just happened to have the same title (Contagious) and she went around saying "Avril doesn't really write songs by herself or anything" then when she found out they were 2 different songs she retracted and said Avril is such a talented writer. She must have felt pretty stupid, accusing Avril of stealing her song before she had even heard it.
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orangesky
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Post by orangesky on Dec 26, 2015 0:12:30 GMT
^ The Chantal thing was so dumb, throwing around accusations without even hearing the song first. I mean, maybe she could have been paid off to say it was a different Contagious when Avril really had taken it without crediting her but it doesn't have the same style as the other stuff they wrote together. I always think it's funny that she accused Avril of not really being a writer when they wrote half of UMS together and only one of those songs was made a single (and that was HW, the last and least successful single which was different from all the other stuff they had written together). It's like she was accusing Avril of not being a proper writer but the label clearly didn't think what she was writing with her was very strong. DTM was the lead single and that was by Avril and Evan, two (at the time) amateur songwriters.
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Gabo
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Post by Gabo on Dec 26, 2015 7:18:18 GMT
It was definitely exaggerated by the label but I don't think it was made up entirely. Avril did skateboard in high school and hung out with the skaters. The tie thing supposedly came from Butch Walker which has never been confirmed but since Avril has never denied it or even really talked about where that look came from, it may be true. I do think a lot of it was her own choice though. As the era went on and she started to become more popular I think she exaggerated the angsty skater grrrrl thing. I've noticed in very early interviews that she's perfectly nice, sweet, normal and funny kid then in later interviews she talks with her head down, 1 word answers, etc. We'll never truly know, of course. But I think it's completely possible for her to have changed her style and look over those years without interference from anyone else. Most teenagers experiment with different looks as they grow up. maybe 'made up' was the wrong expression, but as you said it was very exaggerated. Her style changed so much pre-fame vs. Let Go Era. I also noticed that she actually seemed very friendly in the beginning. I think that changed when she experienced how the media twisted her words around to create 'scandals' or bad press. And about her fashion thing... maybe before she couldn't afford to buy a bunch of hot topic - punk/skater clothes ... and then with her something-thousand dollars paid, she could accomplish to have that closet "fantasy" of hot topic stuff
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Cookie Monster
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Post by Cookie Monster on Dec 26, 2015 10:00:27 GMT
^ I always think it's funny that she accused Avril of not really being a writer when they wrote half of UMS togetherWell you can always give credit to someone for co-writing something even when he/she changed only a few words?
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Dec 26, 2015 14:02:14 GMT
^ I always think it's funny that she accused Avril of not really being a writer when they wrote half of UMS togetherWell you can always give credit to someone for co-writing something even when he/she changed only a few words? Yes that might have been the case on LG, we'll never really know, but I definitely don't think it was on UMS. Avril made it sound like they became sisters through the process, writing songs every night for 2 weeks. Do I think Chantal provided a musical basis for a lot of their songs? Yes, possibly. Do I think Chantal wrote most of the songs and Avril just changed a few words? Not at all. Maybe it wasn't exactly a 50/50 collaboration, maybe more like 60/40 but I definitely think Avril lent a hand in writing the songs. TBH I was never super enthused by the Chantal songs outside of Together and HW. I think Avril's self written songs are better than hers, lyrically speaking. As orange sky noted above, I don't know what reason Chantal would have to be bitter considering that only 1 of her songs was a single and it didn't really go anywhere. 2 of the singles were written by Avril, with someone else doing the music, and it was said that Avril wrote the chorus of MHE herself which is the main hook of the song and the reason it became a hit. So basically Avril more or less wrote the other singles herself and 2 of them were big hits (DTM and MHE). Maybe Chantal was mad that the label didn't choose her genius songs for singles. I think it's hilarious this woman helped Avril come up with lyrics like "I am small and the world is big" and "I miss you, I miss you so bad, I don't forget you, oh it's so sad" and has the balls to say Avril can't write.
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orangesky
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Post by orangesky on Dec 26, 2015 14:39:52 GMT
^ I always think it's funny that she accused Avril of not really being a writer when they wrote half of UMS togetherWell you can always give credit to someone for co-writing something even when he/she changed only a few words? You can and that may have happened for some of LG (or even most of it) but the lyrical style throughout UMS is all very similar and Avril is the only person with a writing credit on every song so it stands to reason that she was heavily involved across the album. The lyrics of the songs she wrote with Chantal have a similar style to the ones written without her. I was always curious about this. I found the old Chantal quote and she says, "Avril doesn’t really sit and write songs by herself or anything. Avril will also cross the ethical line, and no one says anything." Crossing the ethical line is vague but the sitting alone and writing thing...? Just because Chantal didn't see her do that doesn't mean she hasn't ever written a song alone. (Goodbye Lullaby has now proved that she does but I think she's quite social and prefers collaborating). Besides, in 2004 Chantal also said this: ""She's just so motivated, so driven, when she sat down to write a song, she was just a pistol. I think that it's quite hilarious that people are saying the opposite, because she's so much a part of the songwriting process." To be honest, I've never listened to Chantal's music but I wouldn't be rushing to take credit for the songs she and Avril wrote together. The lyrics were very simplistic and, while appropriate for a teenager just starting out, nothing for a professional songwriter to be proud of imo. Few of their lyrics painted much of a picture or told a story of any kind, they never dug too deep into any emotions or tried to show things in a different way, except maybe Together. I remember Avril saying something like they wrote 12 songs in just 14 days and it shows. Their songs sound rushed and basic, fine for album filler that sets the right mood but not for singles.
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Dec 26, 2015 15:02:14 GMT
Well you can always give credit to someone for co-writing something even when he/she changed only a few words? You can and that may have happened for some of LG (or even most of it) but the lyrical style throughout UMS is all very similar and Avril is the only person with a writing credit on every song so it stands to reason that she was heavily involved across the album. The lyrics of the songs she wrote with Chantal have a similar style to the ones written without her. I was always curious about this. I found the old Chantal quote and she says, "Avril doesn’t really sit and write songs by herself or anything. Avril will also cross the ethical line, and no one says anything." Crossing the ethical line is vague but the sitting alone and writing thing...? Just because Chantal didn't see her do that doesn't mean she hasn't ever written a song alone. (Goodbye Lullaby has now proved that she does but I think she's quite social and prefers collaborating). Besides, in 2004 Chantal also said this: ""She's just so motivated, so driven, when she sat down to write a song, she was just a pistol. I think that it's quite hilarious that people are saying the opposite, because she's so much a part of the songwriting process." To be honest, I've never listened to Chantal's music but I wouldn't be rushing to take credit for the songs she and Avril wrote together. The lyrics were very simplistic and, while appropriate for a teenager just starting out, nothing for a professional songwriter to be proud of imo. Few of their lyrics painted much of a picture or told a story of any kind, they never dug too deep into any emotions or tried to show things in a different way, except maybe Together. I remember Avril saying something like they wrote 12 songs in just 14 days and it shows. Their songs sound rushed and basic, fine for album filler that sets the right mood but not for singles. Really.... I've never heard the "she crosses the ethical line" part before. The only thing I could think she means by that is that she would change a few words and want a writing credit for it to make it appear like she was more involved in writing the song than she really was. But like you said, she clearly contradicted herself. I think Chantal was pissed that 3 of the 4 singles were written either entirely or mostly by Avril herself and became hits or fan favorites while the 1 single by Chantal flopped (which I believe was more likely due to the timing and it being the final single than that it's a bad song). I always found it interesting that people like Butch and Chantal stabbed Avril in the back while people like Max Martin and Dr. Luke sang her praises. That solidifies my theory to me that Butch and Chantal really are just bitter that Avril went on to be a big star while that never really happened for them. Max and Luke are both mega producers who have worked with pretty much everyone in the pop industry and have several hits to their name, so there's no reason why they would be jealous of Avril and her success.
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StrongSweet
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Post by StrongSweet on Dec 26, 2015 16:34:50 GMT
He also claimed he wrote parts of My Happy Ending and Don't Tell Me but was not credited. And about the tie thing, he makes it sound as if Avril had never seen a man wearing a tie before him?? He is credited for MHE though.... What he said about it was that he initially started composing the song for his wife and supposedly wrote the entire first verse. Supposedly Avril wrote the chorus and possibly the rest of the song. But I guess the song originally came from Butch. Where DTM is concerned is that he claims to have written the bridge and was never credited. The thing is Avril wrote the song at 17, before Complicated had even been released. Maybe what happened is she had the song written and she showed it to him while they worked on UMS and he suggested a word change here and there. Which wouldn't really be enough to warrant an actual writing credit. I just don't see him writing part of the song and Avril refusing to give him credit. What motivation would she have for doing that? In reality he probably changed a few words and expected to get credit for it because like I said.... he seems like a bitter person. Basically any time one of her songs becomes a hit he wants to act like he had something to do with it. MHE became a hit? Well actually it was his idea in the first place and he wrote the entire first verse. Girlfriend became a hit? Well actually Dr. Luke stole his idea (IMO even though I like TBDT song I think Luke took his idea and just made it 10x better). Avril's tie look became a trend? Well actually she just copied him. But wasn't the credit things on the album all confirmed to the final cut before head? I thought the process exists to make sure all writers and producers agree with the credit... On the other side, if I were Avril along with her personality, I would think of the bridge help was started from friendship not business relation. And if he didn't call to give him credit, I would just think that way lol
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