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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 18:24:47 GMT
I disagree about the mental illness part. While mental illnesses usually are the main reason for incidents like these, it couldnt/shouldnt have happened without the easy access to those weapons. Yes, people can always get them illegally if they really want to, but I think most people wouldnt do so much effort for it. The easy access may just be the final ‘fuck it’ for them to actually do it. Plus, and I can use in the Vegas case as an example, there was no sign of the guy being mentally ill (even though he was bc you must be pretty fucked in the head to be capable of doing that shit). Something in him probably just snapped and he went and did the crime. But how can you check something like that to be able to prevent these incidents? - I think a lot of cases involving deaths by guns, apart from mass shootings like that, are not planned beforehand and can be prevented by much stricter gun laws. And don’t come with bullshit ‘I need a gun to protect myself’ argument. Speaking of root problems: you wouldn’t need one if it wasn’t so easy for criminals to get one. The creeps who shot up Paris could have been stopped from doing as much carnage if ANYONE else had a way to stop them. You think that's bullshit? There is a saying over here: "An armed society is a polite society." And while I don't necessarily agree with that, there is some validity to it.
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marliz.
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Post by marliz. on Oct 4, 2017 18:44:59 GMT
I disagree about the mental illness part. While mental illnesses usually are the main reason for incidents like these, it couldnt/shouldnt have happened without the easy access to those weapons. Yes, people can always get them illegally if they really want to, but I think most people wouldnt do so much effort for it. The easy access may just be the final ‘fuck it’ for them to actually do it. Plus, and I can use in the Vegas case as an example, there was no sign of the guy being mentally ill (even though he was bc you must be pretty fucked in the head to be capable of doing that shit). Something in him probably just snapped and he went and did the crime. But how can you check something like that to be able to prevent these incidents? - I think a lot of cases involving deaths by guns, apart from mass shootings like that, are not planned beforehand and can be prevented by much stricter gun laws. And don’t come with bullshit ‘I need a gun to protect myself’ argument. Speaking of root problems: you wouldn’t need one if it wasn’t so easy for criminals to get one. The creeps who shot up Paris could have been stopped from doing as much carnage if ANYONE else had a way to stop them. You think that's bullshit? There is a saying over here: "An armed society is a polite society." And while I don't necessarily agree with that, there is some validity to it. I’m more talking about household environments, but yes I still think that way of thinking is ‘bullshit’. Damage would have already been done before anyone could react to it, let alone the suicide bombings. If the police couldn’t stop them so quickly, could any other notmal citizen? Plus there are other ways to defend or protect yourself, even from a guy with a gun. Let’s say everyone walking around you on the streets had a gun. Would you feel safe? It would only be an opportunity for more shootings. It’s no solution to stop gun violence.
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Ino
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Post by Ino on Oct 4, 2017 18:52:57 GMT
No.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 19:02:57 GMT
The creeps who shot up Paris could have been stopped from doing as much carnage if ANYONE else had a way to stop them. You think that's bullshit? There is a saying over here: "An armed society is a polite society." And while I don't necessarily agree with that, there is some validity to it. I’m more talking about household environments, but yes I still think that way of thinking is ‘bullshit’. Damage would have already been done before anyone could react to it, let alone the suicide bombings. If the police couldn’t stop them so quickly, could any other notmal citizen? Plus there are other ways to defend or protect yourself, even from a guy with a gun. Let’s say everyone walking around you on the streets had a gun. Would you feel safe? It would only be an opportunity for more shootings. It’s no solution to stop gun violence. In some towns here, everyone walking around DOES have a gun. And while I don't know the safety aspect of it, I do think people are a little bit nicer to each other. That is a joke Marliz.......please, don't shoot the messenger.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 19:10:06 GMT
It's probably time to scrap some legislation written in the 1700s, or at least reevaluate it, respecting the context in which it was written but NOT applying it to reality in 2017... Oh wait that would be 'unconstitutional' wouldn't it? Ah well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 19:18:14 GMT
Yes Alex, it would.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 19:20:34 GMT
More fuel..........from a US magazine today.
For context, mortality in America by the numbers...
We can all agree that one murder in America is too many, and there is an epidemic of violence across our nation. To put that into perspective, here is some of the latest U.S. annual mortality data:
88,000 people died from alcohol-related causes. 64,000 people died from drug overdoses. 44,000 people died by suicide, many related to drug and alcohol abuse. 40,000 people died in motor vehicles crashes, about a third related to drug and alcohol abuse. Regarding murders, the latest FBI uniform crime report notes there were an estimated 17,250 people murdered in the U.S. in 2016. In 70% of those cases, the assailant used a firearm. It is estimated that in less than 0.5% (one-half of 1%) of those murders, an "assault weapon" was used.
Self-defense and survival rates...
According to the most recent self-defense surveys, firearms are used for protection against an assailant some one million to 2.5 million times annually. It is fair to infer that the number of lives saved by the capacity to defend yourself with a firearm far outnumbers the murder rates...
Murder rates in "gun free" American cities...
What we can also deduce from the most recent FBI murder stats is that the 10 most dangerous cities in America with populations above 200,000 are all managed, top to bottom, by Democrats. Notably, those cities also have the most restrictive gun control policies in the nation.
Murder rates in "gun free" nations...
In Europe, where firearms are tightly regulated, there has been more bloodshed in mass attacks than in the U.S.
Over the eight years of the Obama administration, while the U.S. had 29 mass assaults (defined by the FBI as four or more fatalities in a public place), there were 26 in Europe — fewer attacks, but more deaths. In fact, France had more mass murder casualties with firearms in 2015 alone than the U.S. total for the Obama years.
For the record, if you are not a gang member or drug dealer/user, your chances of becoming a murder victim are on par with European Union nations. Oh, and in Switzerland, which has a higher concentration of "assault weapons" per capita than any nation in the world, the murder rate is one of the lowest in the world.
Regarding murder rates in Australia, where most firearms were confiscated in 1996, according to the latest firearms causation study by the Journal of the American Medical Association, while there was a "decline in firearm deaths between 1997 and 2013," there was "a decline in total nonfirearm suicide and homicide deaths of a greater magnitude," thus "it is not possible to determine whether the change in firearm deaths can be attributed to the gun law reforms."
More guns, fewer murders...
According to Pew Research crime data, the rate of violent crime dropped almost 50% in the decade up to 2015. At the same time, the rate of firearm sales and ownership has steadily increased.
Thus, as research by former Yale professor John Lott concludes, "More Guns, Less Crime."
Notably, however, according to the latest FBI crime stats, violent crime in 2015 and 2016 is trending upward, due in large measure to the "Ferguson Effect." Police in urban areas with high crime are backing off enforcement because, after the justified shooting of a Ferguson, Missouri thug, national and local politicians joined Barack Obama's war on cops, condemning them for "racial profiling."
Bottom line...
The bloody assault in Las Vegas, and all those that proceeded it, were not a "gun problem," or problems with knives, vehicles, planes or bombs. These are all problems of evil. Let's call these assailants what they are, and maybe we can begin to address the root causes of the bloody attacks as a necessary part of the dialogue on how to prevent them.
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Sarah93
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Post by Sarah93 on Oct 4, 2017 19:25:25 GMT
Since everyone is expressing their opinion about gun laws, I'm going to express mine as well. I live in a country where people don't own guns, and if you do you have to pass really strict exams. I have never been able to understand American laws on guns, because I can't understand the concept " I carry a gun to protect myself" - I think that if you think in those terms, you're always in constant fear of being attacked, but if you live in a nice place where no one has a gun, why would you be afraid of being attacked? I know that the second amendment is a law made centuries ago, when pioneers had to defend themselves from "Indians", but it's 2017 now, haven't times changed? I know it's a complicated situation, and I know that people who want to kill or do a massacre aren't going to give a shit about gun laws, and BogoGog24 made a good point, but I think it can help prevent some sad massacres. How many innocent people still have to die? and yes, I do agree prob people should enforce to cure people with mental illnesses. PS: I think that Avril has some knowledge about what she's talking about I'm not saying she's an expert, but she doesn't live in a bubble, I'm sure she watches the news every day like everyone does, and is informed about gun laws in the States, since she's been living in the USA for more than a decade now
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 19:31:13 GMT
I know this: Only in America* could a civilian even consider getting a high powered automatic rifle, legally or no. Gun ownership makes me raise an eyebrow in the first place, but what reason would anyone possibly have to own something like that?! I didn't realise deer could withstand several dozen bullets.
*Okay except Switzerland maybe, but the Swiss seem pretty chilled to me.
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Sarah93
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Post by Sarah93 on Oct 4, 2017 19:32:34 GMT
I know this: Only in America* could a civilian even consider getting a high powered automatic rifle, legally or no. Gun ownership makes me raise an eyebrow in the first place, but what reason would anyone possibly have to own something like that?! I didn't realise deer could withstand several dozen bullets. *Okay except Switzerland maybe, but the Swiss seem pretty chilled to me. That's exactly what I'm asking!
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hethoedje
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Post by hethoedje on Oct 4, 2017 20:07:59 GMT
Isn't the rate of owned assault rifles among the Swiss because they get to have their military firearm stashed at home? Since the Swiss have military conscription, the rate of assault rifles there is pretty high.
But i kind of agree with Hookster. Not in the way that i would want everyone tot walk around with a firearm, but banning them is probably the worst thing to do. Especially in America, where the possession of firearms is widely accepted. People aren't going to change that mindset the moment that law would go in. With a massive illegal market as a result. And i alsof think the personal protection-aspect of possessing firearms is in some ways right. Maybe not necessarily in big cities, but if you live in rural areas that emergency services can't reach in time, i can imagine you would want some personal protection. We always have a bat lying under our bed at home, because you never know...
But on the other hand, i think one can defend himself with a revolver just fine, so the need for (semi) automatic weapons isn't that necessary for me. So the banning of the bumpstocks is probably a right thing to do.
Unless it is your hobby, as long as you keep that hobby on the shooting range. In that case it is just fine for me.
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Post by Becky on Oct 4, 2017 20:08:12 GMT
I don't understand how it's unconstitutional to change an amendment (...as that's an amendment in itself) when Lincoln worked to make slavery illegal and is now the (15th?) amendment? Feel free to explain because that just doesn't make any sense to me.
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Sarah93
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Post by Sarah93 on Oct 4, 2017 20:16:13 GMT
I don't understand how it's unconstitutional to change an amendment (...as that's an amendment in itself) when Lincoln worked to make slavery illegal and is now the (15th?) amendment? Feel free to explain because that just doesn't make any sense to me. I can't understand that either, doesn't the word "amendment" mean change to improve a text or smth?
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marliz.
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Post by marliz. on Oct 4, 2017 20:35:18 GMT
ahhh 'numbers and facts', it was only a matter of time.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 20:51:00 GMT
50% of statistics are made up on the spot!
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