jd
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Post by jd on Dec 25, 2020 2:01:22 GMT
Hello, people. Please forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere... I did search.
Has Avril ever said why she took such a turn after the second album? For me it seemed as though the Rock Chick I loved so much had evaporated overnight. Never to be seen again.
Any information you might be able to offer would be greatly appreciated.
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Dec 25, 2020 3:17:54 GMT
It’s really simple. She grew up and changed. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Next....
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Underclass King
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Post by Underclass King on Dec 25, 2020 4:06:55 GMT
I'm not sure if this is a hot take or not, but I honestly think The Best Damn Thing era was the start of a more authentic Avril in comparison to her first two eras. Not to say she was fake or anything before, but I do believe that Arista (and the media) really cranked up her image for marketing purposes. They really pushed the narrative that Avril was a "punk rock chick" who loves to skateboard all day and is just one of the guys. I think that Avril related to this notion, although on a smaller scale. With The Best Damn Thing era, Avril was still the girl who loves to rock out, but now she was also the "mother fucking princess" who loves the color pink and hair highlights, who also isn't afraid to show a more feminine side. Similarly to Arista, RCA cranked this image up for marketing purposes. However, its been nearly 14 years since The Best Damn Thing era and Avril still proudly calls herself the "mother fucking princess", colors her hair like the rainbow, and releases fun pop tunes like "Hello Kitty" and "Dumb Blonde". I agree with Bogo that Avril growing up was part of it, although I also think Avril was probably able to step back a little from the tomboy, "anti-Britney" image Arista and the media crafted for her.
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jd
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Post by jd on Dec 25, 2020 5:48:50 GMT
Thanks for the responses. It is interesting to note how others view things.
Honestly, I bought into the the image of Avril as being who she was in those early years. If you don't like my music then you don't like me. Whether she skated or not seemed unimportant. She never claimed to be a punk and was miffed when others called her faux punk (find it on youtube). Her dealings with the media seemed strained, as though she'd rather be elsewhere. She sang of being herself, not some Britney or tween idol.
I have every scrap of her stuff - the special editions and B sides. All the DVDs. My World, Try to Shut Me Up Tour, the Bonez Tour documentary and making of on the special edition of UMS + Bonez Tour DVD from Japan, A Day in the Life from the two disk Let Go... these are all worth their weight in gold. Damn shame there was never a proper release of the Bonez tour like there was with My World. It can't have all been marketing mystique. There was a whole person there.
But then there was a metamorphosis. The gruff, honest and opinionated Avril had become just another plastic fantastic. Since Under My Skin there has been one slightly memorable jingle and some cookie cutter love songs (And a complete loss of any more live footage outside of the stuff offered on TBDT and GL). The Best Damn Tour was painful to watch. I could just imagine some image consultant whispering in her ear over and over: SMILE HARDER. FAKE IT. Ditto for the live recordings on The Best Damn Thing special edition.
Surely it wasn't just a cash grab - a conscsious decision to abandon all her fans in favour of the potentially more profitable tween market because some advisor or other said they could boost sales if she could just be a littl bit less her self... a little less challenging. Which was a bust BTW. Album sales have dropped by order of release.
People can indeed change. Growing into something vapid and insincere is painful to watch.
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biggerwow
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Post by biggerwow on Dec 25, 2020 6:20:15 GMT
There's so many interviews from 2007 where she talks about it. She wanted more upbeat songs like HW and SB to perform. And the tour was her idea too.
I also think she just got more comfortable being herself. UMS was only her second album and LG was pop rock but also had hints of other genres. Plus it's not like TBDT was a typical pop album. Majority of the songs had loud drums and guitars. It was an upbeat pop rock record. I think the pink, cheerleaders, choreography, and especially the brattyness of the Motherfuckin Princess alter ego is the reason people write off the album and the era. A lot of fans preffered the "darkness" of UMS era.
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jd
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Post by jd on Dec 25, 2020 6:36:00 GMT
Thanks biggerwow. Much Appreciated.
See the thing is that Avril said on the release of UMS that the music had changed as she grew older... had become darker, more emotional. Makes sense to me.
To reverse all that and go pop tastic with cheer leaders and break dancing on the third album confounds me. It hurts. LG had some genuinely classic stuff. Losing Grip, Unwanted, Mobile, My Home- I'm With You still chokes me up every single time. I loved UMS. Always will.
Country or Rock, I just want to see more of the Avril that had something to say.
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henryp92
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Post by henryp92 on Dec 25, 2020 10:00:24 GMT
Hot take (maybe?) but TBDT is the rockiest album she has ever put out.
UMS surely leans into dark, alt rock for some tracks, but listen to the instrumentals of TBDT. That's actually quite heavy punkpop.
The album is bratty, bubblegum and cheerleading, but at its core is less pop than the others. UMS, as much as I love it, always felt like pushing the "take me seriously" narrative, while TBDT feels like a genuine record of her being herself and wanting to have fun.
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Dec 25, 2020 13:38:50 GMT
Just because she once enjoyed darker music and a more “goth/emo” image does not mean suddenly when she decided she liked pink and glitter she is now inauthentic. The parts of TBDT that I can understand people not liking, and I myself had a hard time accepting at first, are the bratty lyrics, the fact she said a lot of the songs weren’t personal to her (when she had always made a big deal about her music being so personal), and the dancers, she since had always also made a big deal about not being like the other pop stars who had dancers.
Here’s the thing. Had Avril/the label/the media not made such a huge deal in the first place about pushing Avril as this serious singer/songwriter who only writes such personal songs and hates pink and pop music, it wouldn’t have been such a shock to anyone when she decided she liked those things. I believe that is genuinely who she was in LG and UMS, but it was quite exaggerated by the label in order to sell records. With TBDT, that was also who she genuinely was and it was also exaggerated to sell records. That’s how it works. But she took over creative control of that album more than probably her other 2, especially more than LG. This wasn’t some label telling her they thought she should do this, she personally felt it was the direction she wanted to go in after doing such a heavy, dark album. Imagine playing those songs on the road night after night for 2 years, it isn’t surprising at all she wanted to change it up. Plus she was happy and married, naturally she was more inclined to do upbeat stuff at that point.
And so what if she wanted to experiment with dancers? It made sense for that album and was the perfect time to try them. She hasn’t used them since, mostly because it doesn’t work with the music she’s put out since then, but also because I think she prefers just having the band.
The way I see it is that after UMS her career could have gone one of 2 ways. She could have opted to continue with the UMS sound and image, but she likely would have tapered off after a while and become more like an Evanescence type of artist - successful enough to still chart and tour but she wouldn’t have likely had much mainstream success. I also think her fans would have become bored after a while if she kept doing the same album over and over.
The other option was to do what she did which was reinvent herself and take her career in a new direction. It might have alienated some fans but it also gained her some new ones. Yeah it sold less than her past records but that happens with every album she puts out. GL was also a “serious” album that sold even less, so the quality of the music doesn’t really have anything to do with it. Like it or not, TBDT was her last truly successful commercial era and the only era so far that produced a #1 single.
The criticisms of the brattiness of the era or the dancers or less personal writing are totally valid. But I really dislike when it seems like people criticize her or that album for the pink stuff, or the fact she decided to dress more feminine, as if to imply her acting feminine and girly is a bad thing and “oh she was so much better before.” You may not realize it, but that is misogynistic and I really dislike that. There’s nothing wrong with Avril changing her interests and views of the world and deciding she can finally like pink and girly things while still keeping her rocker chick sound and image. There’s nothing wrong with her experimenting and trying new sounds or having dancers for one record. She’s an artist and she’s allowed to try new things instead of staying stuck in this one particular sound and image just because that’s what fans want from her. And more importantly, as a woman, she’s allowed to be multifaceted. She can like pink and glitter and cheerleader music and still be a rock chick. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive.
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BogoGog24
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Post by BogoGog24 on Dec 25, 2020 15:33:32 GMT
I also think it's worth noting that she was already experimenting with TBDT sound and image during UMS era, which is why I have never understood why people praise the UMS era so much but then act like TBDT era is where she suddenly changed. She dyed her hair blonde towards the end of 2004, I believe. She released IAGWIW in 2004, one of her brattiest songs to date. And EBBY was originally written during the UMS sessions, but she decided to save it for another album and realized it would fit better on TBDT. If you listen closely, it's possible she even recorded the song back during the UMS era with the way her voice sounds. Whether you like it or not, she started experimenting with this sound and image long before TBDT actually ever happened. She probably always secretly wanted to be able to do brattier music and experiment more with her image, but probably felt like she was stuck in this box with the first 2 albums. With TBDT it was like she was able to finally let go (no pun intended lol) and just be herself and what she really wanted to be, regardless of what other people would think.
She was also always kind of into the Hollywood lifestyle too, more than I think she claimed to be. As early as 2003 or 2004 she was seen hanging around with socialites like Paris and Nicky Hilton and people like that. She also always liked Hello Kitty, there's a video of her from LG era back at her old house and you can see a Hello Kitty phone in her bedroom. She likely always had these girlier/more pop/Hollywood sides to herself, but never showed them as much because it wouldn't have coincided with her image at that time. With TBDT she felt more comfortable letting that side of herself show since it fit with the image she was trying to portray for that record.
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biggerwow
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Post by biggerwow on Dec 25, 2020 18:04:29 GMT
Hot take (maybe?) but TBDT is the rockiest album she has ever put out. thank you. I didn't want to be the one to say it 😅
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melissavandella
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Post by melissavandella on Dec 25, 2020 18:09:09 GMT
After UMS she stopped being a loser and turned into a decent person. That happened.
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MPone01
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Post by MPone01 on Dec 26, 2020 0:32:57 GMT
Easy, she was replaced for a doppelganger! Do your research!
Jk
I agree with @biggerwow
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TomX
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Post by TomX on Dec 26, 2020 3:31:59 GMT
Lol I still don’t get how the aesthetic of the era had so much impact people took it as basically a hip-hop album when it’s her heaviest album to date. And even though it was pink, even though there were backup singers and dancers (who were fucking annoying, yes), she still wore Converse, t-shirts and had the same punk-rock vibe. But she brought in the heels and dresses for some events and people went nuts about it. She was even wearing heels in the UMS era, like early on. But somehow people tend to ignore these things and just like to think she changed overnight in 2007. Even the He Wasn’t video in 2005 was a hint of what was to come. TBDT was a natural evolution for her. I think she could’ve done away with the singers/dancers and the overuse of pink. And I was never a fan of that smile on her face 24/7 while she was on tour. She could be singing a sad song and would be smiling, like it took away the seriousness. Maybe she could’ve added a couple of more serious or mid-tempo songs into the album to make the transition softer. That aside, musically speaking, it was a great move on her behalf to go into that direction.
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jd
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Post by jd on Dec 26, 2020 5:40:31 GMT
Thank you guys. This is all good stuff.
Avril did state that a part of herself died in those early years. I've not been able to flesh that out. Damned curious if anyone might have details.
I suppose for me the most jarring thing about TBDT era was the rictus smile. It wasn't her. Not one bit. The Avril I knew was not afraid to show boredom or displeasure. Fake smiles were for the Disney princesses and allied corporate products.
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Uncle Bob
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Post by Uncle Bob on Dec 26, 2020 8:03:07 GMT
Boooooring. I grew weary of this conversation in 2008. Avril gets plenty of criticism here. That's fair. However, you're not going to be allowed to endlessly insult her, for silly shit, like her smile. This a fan forum. If you are no longer a fan, if you have nothing positive to contribute, go away. Delete your account, or I can do that for you. No one will miss you.
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